Actually, it seems to be Jews he doesn't like. (yeah, he blames Islam too, but he really seems to have it in for Jews, because they practice circumcision; he seems totally unaware that many secular families go in for it too.)

A lot of the anti-circumcision stuff seems to boil down to "Those awful Jews are doing awful things to babies!" (There may be good reasons for opposing circumcision, but most of those who are most vocal about opposing it do seem to drag in the Jooooos at some point.)

One thing Andrea doesn't mention is that circumcision became widespread in the USA not explicitly for religious reasons, but because it was believed that it cut down on nocturnal emissions and masturbation.

Heh... found this on Commentary's blog:

There is no god but gay and Sullivan is his Prophet.

With #4 looking to be a boy, we've been doing research on this... All the current recommendations seem to boil down to "As long as the procedure is done with anesthetic, there's about as much chance of having a problem with the procedure as there is with having problems and needing the surgery later. So it's really up to mom & dad's personal preferences."

And yes, I would guess that most circumcisions are done without anesthetic, but I'd be surprised if that's true in the west. I think he's going to have a hard time convincing africans that their initiation rituals for 12 year olds is going to have to change...

I haven't researched this thoroughly, but I suspect that there was a theological component to it as well... In the 1800's, Covenant theology (ie, the church essentially took on the promises of Israel, replaced Israel in G-d's scheme of things) was pretty big in the US. If you replace Israel, what does that mean you need to do? Two things that I think of are observation of the Sabbath and circumcision, and both definitely became part of the culture.

Not on this one, but on an older one trackback is confirmed.

Browsing Sullington, I found this completely unrelated link: Nonsense as Fact, detailing Sy Hersh's rigorous jouranlistic standards:

Hersh said he heard the story from Robert Fisk, the bureau chief of The Independent's Beirut office. But Hersh did not check out the story himself. For his part, Fisk said he heard the unconfirmed report from Alastair Crooke, a former British intelligence agent and the founding director and Middle East representative of the Conflicts Forum, a non-profit organization that aims to build a new relationship between the West and the Muslim world. Crooke, who gained his reputation through his involvement in the conflict in northern Ireland, does not know Arabic. When Lebanese journalists spoke to Crooke about the report, they said he told them only that he had heard it "from all kinds of people."

Lyana, I've posted before about the uproar in my family when my son was gestating about the circumcision topic. Everyone had an opinion, and everyone was SURE they were right. And we're all gung ho Isreal-philes, too, so for those opposed in my family it had nothing to do with anti-semitism. It culminated in an out and out shout fest at the Thanksgiving table.

We chose not to, and surprisingly when the topic comes up (and for some reason it comes up frequently with other boy moms), I've found that a slight majority of the women I'm friends with (barring religious reasons) chose not to circumcise and have had no problems.

If we HAD chosen circumcision, I think that we would have hired a mohel! Seriously - a lot of the studies have shown that the traditional bris is the most humane method.

FWIW, my cousbians also declined to circumcise their boy.

Also, whenever the subject of circumcision comes up, my hubby will repeat EVERY SINGLE TIME a quote from throb about his experience with the dudes in Russia. It collapses him every time.

afw, this does seem to be one of those things that you can't have a civil discussion about. I bet that was a fun Thanksgiving! We haven't really talked to anybody about it because of that, just done information gathering.

I read recently (no cite) that circumcised males are less likely to contract/spread HIV. So let's hear it for Sullivan - with whom I agree on a surprising number of things - for advocating positions that ensure the spread of that plague.

I've had a few friends, not Jewish, whose parents had them circumcised by a mohel. It seems that physicians receive no special circumcision training. The only horror stories I've heard have been about physicians not doing it right. And what's inhuman about a baby sucking on a wine soaked cloth as anesthetic ?

A mohel can always find work in NYC.

I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to serve calamari rings in tomato sauce at the Casa de Air Force.

Also, whenever the subject of circumcision comes up, my hubby will repeat EVERY SINGLE TIME a quote from throb about his experience with the dudes in Russia. It collapses him every time.

And the quote was?

Yuck. Some people seriously need to get lives.

At least this wacko is not in the USA.

Or the jar containing what appears to be pork rinds at the mohel's place.

Circumcision in the Stone Age! (NSFW)

Who knew?

Are you sure? That's a California license plate.


Oh, wait...

Are you sure? Is the top part hidden? I thought it was a non-USA plate. And I'm pretty sure the Daihatsu Charade was never sold in the USA.

Off topic, but appropriate to this thread---I remember the guy who used to go to Renaissance Faires with this gigantic broadsword over his shoulder, bellowing, "CIRCcumCISIONS! Get your Circumcisions here!"

He also said he never charged fees---just took tips.

G-R-O-A-N

definitely a California license plate, with a San Francisco neighborhood-area parking permit sticker on the left end of the bumper. and the Charade was sold in the US; i almost bought a used one from a coworker in the late 90s before my mechanic warned me off.

Hi dub kitty. Are you new to bloggie?

If we HAD chosen circumcision, I think that we would have hired a mohel! Seriously - a lot of the studies have shown that the traditional bris is the most humane method.

That's interesting. Phimosis seems to be common in my husband's family, so any boys we have will need to be circumcised. I'll keep that in mind when the time comes.

How does one find a mohel, anyway?

I read recently (no cite) that circumcised males are less likely to contract/spread HIV. So let's hear it for Sullivan - with whom I agree on a surprising number of things - for advocating positions that ensure the spread of that plague.

Of course, one could also teach their child (whether gay or straight) not to have unprotected sex with wild abandon as if the world is their porn stage.

Not that I'm knocking the study, which had absolutely amazing results. Just that I really don't think we need another reason for people to ditch personal responsibility in their sex lives. I mean, hey, it's not like HIV is as much of a problem if you're circumcised, right? Why bother with precautions?

Stormi, throb said that when the dudes would see him sans clothes they would say, "I didn't know you were Jewish!"

For some reason, that cracks hubby up every single time. Every. Single. Time.

You're in good company then. The British Royal Family had all their boys circumcised and they only use a Mohel.

Gutterfiend, if and when the time comes, call your local Jewish community and ask for a list of mohelim.

Heh. On this link too:

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Miss Sullington Hates Teh Cut
Excerpt: Miss Sullington Hates Teh Cut
Weblog: discarded lies - hyperlinkopotamus
Tracked: Jun 22, 2007 11:39:53 PM

For cba, Fay and Annie:

Enough to make any Brit homesick

I haven't been naked in a public place in Bolivia, but I suspect that I might get a similar reaction there.

LOL! Great picture Franco! And yes, it's making me homesick while we're baking in a heatwave here. Even though I'm "sick of home" because of the assorted UK boycotts of Israel.

34°C? That's nothing. "HOT" begins at 40°C + dewpoint of 25°C. :)

I love that dress on the lady on the right.

It's heading into the 40s over the next few days...

I still don't understand dewpoint. I just know humidity in percentages. When it's over 60% it's unbearable. Welcome to my sauna :-)

This second they announced that it was 37°C and 90% humidity on the coastal plain. I saw the weather report about it being 31-34°C, and I don't know where they get their figures from. Probably from the airconditioned press room.

Hell, that makes me homesick, and I've never even been to Britain!

What a lovely picture.

The humidity is 88% here this afternoon, but the temp is only 24 (thank goodness). By Monday it'll be 31. Ugh. But I guess I can't complain to you, huh? :-)

It's one degree warmer in Cochabamba now. I don't get it. It's supposed to be "December".

"City of Eternal Spring", indeed.

I dunno. Complain away:-) That sounds pretty muggy all the same. I hate humidity. Jerusalem is so much better (not only weatherwise, lOL!). It's much drier and the breeze is cooler because it's in the mountains so the heat is easier to bear.

Oh yeah, I'm sure. If you'll notice the red registration tag in the upper right (barely visible), that's a 2007 tag (2008 is orange), and the style of the letters and numbers and their sequence are absolutely California. And the Daihatsu Charade was sold here for several years; Daihatsu left the US market in 1992 due to declining sales (which were never strong to begin with) -- the Charade often being the butt of jokes: mostly along the lines of "It's called a 'Charade' because it only pretends to be a real car". A poor safety record didn't help, either.

I would assume, with all those damn bumper stickers, it's in the Bay Area somewhere, if not San Francisco itself.

Actually, it appears the Charade was sold in the US for only a little over four years: 1988-1992. I thought it was longer than that.

Maybe it was only sold on the west coast - I don't remember seeing any here.

I remember seeing ads for the Innocenti DiTomaso mini in Italian magazines - I didn't realize that the design came from the Charade, or that British Leyland owned it.

Could be. I still see them out here.

Part of the Charade's troubles was that its main selling point, fuel economy, wasn't all that great, considering how small it is. The Honda Civic HF got a couple of miles per gallon more, and was a larger and more comfortable car, relatively speaking. Also much better quality of construction... for about the same price. The little Daihatsu was doomed from the start.

Thanks for the pic franco, I presume that's from this year's Ascot? Actually the weather in Vancouver is crap right now, about 18 C and overcast. We had rain during the week though.

Yes, as a matter of fact it is...

Two women sit at a picnic table and shelter beneath an umbrella during a rain shower at Royal Ascot on June 23, 2007 in Ascot, England

This makes me think of that "Lil' Bush" video. Heheh. :)

I remember a similar joke on Car Talk. A lady called in about a problem with her Ford Aspire. One of the brothers said, "What does that mean? That you aspire to a better car?"

I do recall seeing the occassional Daihatsu for a short time, but I don't remember what model(s).

This makes me think of that "Lil' Bush" video. Heheh. :)

I made white chedder shells for my kids for dinner (hubby and I had a late lunch at Panera). My son took one look at the vegetarian fare and brought his plate to me asking, "May I have hot eagle Jesus dogs?"

Now, I ask you, how could I deny him that?

I couldn't, is the answer. So I reminded him that they are hot PATRIOT eagle Jesus dogs, he said, "Oh, yeah!" and he got some as a side.

Kids.

What's a hot eagle Jesus dog?

What are white cheddar shells?

They're like macaroni and cheese, except the past is shell shaped, and the sauce is a white cheddar sauce instead of radioactive orange.

Ah, thank you.

A hot PATRIOT eagle Jesus Dog is what the main character in Lil Bush calls hot dogs.


Lil Bush hot dog episode

I just love it.

Waiting now for the photoshop of Lil'Bush's head on Buddy Jesus :-)

OMG that is so wrong.

Wow, so Sully has jumped onto the gay anti-circ bandwagon.

As I've mentioned before, among some gay men it is quite trendy to be anti-circumcision. Moreover, such men do not merely object that infant circumcision is an unnecessary surgery, but they disparage it in harsh language as a form of "mutilation." (Mind you, however, although it's quite socially acceptable in some gay circles to describe cut dicks as "mutilated," heaven help you if you're rude enough to say that Prince Alberts look gross, you judgmental hater, you.)

IMHO, the disparagement of male circumcision by some gay men is to all appearances a bizarre form of clitoridectomy-envy -- they want to cash in on the sympathy afforded to FGM victims, despite the fact that circumcised dicks remain sexually sensitive and fully functional.

Yeah, I still remember the look that the clerk in The Leather Rack gave me when I said "wow, I didn't know people actually used those things!", when the couple in front of me bought one of those Shamu-sized dildoes.

Keep in mind that this is based on comparative studies done on men in Africa, where standards of personal hygiene are likely to be lower than in developed West. In other words, even if male circumcision does reduce female-to-male HIV transmission rates in Africa, there may not be a comparable effect in developed countries where almost everyone has access to hot running water, making it trivially easy to keep an uncut dick just as clean as a cut one.

Also, the African studies found only that a cut HIV- man is less likely than an uncut HIV- man to contract the virus from an HIV+ woman -- for reasons that a moment's thought should make clear, circumcision does NOT reduce the odds that an HIV+ man will transmit the virus to a receptive HIV- partner.

What this means for Western gay men is that if circumcision made a difference at all, it would only be of theoretical benefit to HIV- bareback tops who are fucking HIV+ bottoms. HIV- men who are foolish enough to bottom bareback would be at equal risk whether their HIV+ tops are cut or uncut.

Heh, that's funny; I just got back from a bris. (I had to choose between two in town this morning.)

I don't know why this is so funny, but I'm busting up over here.

Throbert, I want to thank you for all your comments on this subject. They're always insightful and well presented, and they give the reader a lot to think about, even if said reader never had occasion to think much about the subject before. (this is true for many things, not just penis-related subjects)

Throbert, what was it that you called the dildoes that are the size of a human arm? As I recall you had a really funny name for them.

Umm, "murder weapons?"

Well, seeing as they're probably made of silicone, I don't think you could actually murder somebody to death with them, but you could probably bruise them up pretty good.

Choked to dea...oh, never mind.

Seconded with great vigor.

Not.

I can't remember ever using a funny name for jumbo-sized dildoes. I may have used "fire hydrant" to describe jumbo-sized buttplugs. (The main practical difference between a dildo and a buttplug, by the way, is that the latter by definition have a narrow "waist" like an hourglass and are wider at either end. The anal sphincters are supposed to contract around the skinny middle section, holding it in place, while the wider base prevents it from slipping all the way inside and "getting lost." Dildoes often have a wide base for the same reason, but otherwise are about the same circumference from end to the other, without a narrow middle.)

Anyway, some buttplugs are terrifying large, suggesting the top of a fire hydrant -- the results of which have been famously demonstrated by the "goatse" dude.

Oh, that's it - you called it "goatse-size".

Lyana, please, take into account what the procedure entails and what is it worth? What is it FOR? On the other hand, isn't this cutting of your baby's sexual organ? Doesn't something about that seem not right? A doctor canNOT (legally) gaurantee you that the child will be anesthesized to the point that he cannot feel the procedure at all. To do so would be too dangerous for a baby so small. Many offices don't want a parent present during the procedure (wonder why). My son is not circumcized. He is 6 months old. He is and has been fine. I am not certain of this, but I'm suspecting that with children who are originally NOT circumcised and begin to develope problems... I believe it is because American women are so out-of-the-loop on uncircumcised penises that they believe they need to clean the child more thoroughly (pull back the foreskin)... which is actually the LAST thing you should do. This WILL cause infection/problems. A simple wipe around the external part is all that is necessary and the baby's foreskin (in most cases) will not begin to retract until way later. When THIS occurs, then a simple wiping with water is all that is needed. Soaps are rather harmful to this area. Compared to the pain of recovery that your baby will experience, the loss of part of his sexual organ and the loss of sex experienced as it should be someday... is cultural practice REASON ENOUGH? And on a side note, circumcision does not prevent HIV, CONDEMNS do. And the real root of this issue is "having that baby look like daddy"... but when did our superficiality overrule protecting our children's sexual organs?! Visit www.nocirc.org or check out the International Coalition for Genital Integrity

^^^All you ever needed to know about infant foreskins.

And remember, kids: Wrap it up before you slap it up. Always use a condemn.

Well, it worked for Hester Prynne.

"The International Coalition for Genital Integrity"? Are you for real?

I wonder if they sell t-shirts. I would be the coolest kid on the block if I had me one of those.

Huh. I just googled it, and it actually exists. No t-shirts though.

Of course he's in the USA. That's my friend Brian's car... his VW microbus looks pretty much the same. He lives in NoPa in San Francisco. And no, I don't feel self-conscious when we go to the grocery store in this car... it's San Francisco, after all!

To the other poster, yes there is such a group as the International Coalition for Genital Integrity (ICGI). It's more of an umbrella group for numerous pro-intact organizations that address specific angles of the circumcision question. But a new nationwide group had its debut in early 2009, IntactAmerica (IA). It aims to educate people about the physical damage that circumcision causes and the very true fact that circumcision has never been definitively proven to have improved the health of Americans since it was introduced (or of Canadians or of Australians, before both countries abandoned infant circumcision). Just the opposite, in fact: the US has 3 times the HIV seroconversion rate of Western Europe via heterosexual intercourse when controlled for all other factors. The US is higher in every single STI (gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, yeast infections, urethritis and more) and buys almost 10 times the amount of erectile dysfunction meds per adult male -- since circumcision's worst effects show up in one's 40's and later. The US's grand experiment with circumcision has been one enormous, costly failure from a health standpoint, though some people think it's "prettier". Most of the world would beg to differ, however.

The bottom line is this: if you circumcise your son, you won't make him "healthier" or "safer" or "better". You'll simply remove half the skin of his penis and leave a scar. No more, no less.

Okay, I'll bite. How does infant circumcision cause erectile dysfunction later in life?

Sullivan had posted another article about these folks today, I assumed that someone had linked to it. But I see it's a johnny-cum-lately poster.

Erectile dysfunction tends to start in ALL males starting in the 40s. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Brant -

You may tell your friend Brian, on my behalf, that he seriously needs to get a life.

(I now see why I assumed that the car was not from the USA - the bumper hid the upper half of the license plate, making it look like one of those low/wide European thingies.

I guess the motto "Circumcision: It really isn't as necessary as some people think" is insufficiently melodramatic for these folks.