bloggie

Israeli Avi Zana listened with horror on Thursday to news that the Hamas militant group that killed his son had won Palestinian elections.

On the streets of the Jewish state, there was grave concern at the victory of the Hamas movement that carried out nearly 60 suicide bombings during a Palestinian uprising and is formally dedicated to destroying Israel.

"The Palestinians have shown their true face by electing Hamas," said Zana, 46. "The group does not want control of the Palestinian Authority, it wants control of all Israel."

Among those expected to win seats in the new Palestinian parliament was Mariam Farhat, also known as Umm Nidal, who in a video tape message urged her sons to carry out attacks -- including the one on a Jewish settlement in which Zana's 18-year-old-son was killed.

Hamas has largely followed a truce for the past year and played down its charter commitment to get rid of Israel during the campaign.

Its victory was seen by Palestinians mostly as a vote for change from the dominant Fatah movement, long accused of corruption and misrule.

"Hamas was not elected to carry out attacks against Israel. It was elected to bring about change," said Israeli analyst Yochanan Tsorev. "We have to see how things develop."

But such suggestions have done little to ease the fears of many Israelis.

"It is hard not to be even more pessimistic now about peacemaking prospects here," said Shimi Breutman, 22, a travel guide.

"We could see this whole place engulfed in even further chaos. Israel has to tread very carefully."

Peace talks collapsed in 2000 before the uprising started.

Israel, joined by the United States, refuses to negotiate with Hamas until it disarms and changes its charter.

Following Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip last year, Israeli leaders have mooted a possible further withdrawal from parts of the West Bank to set a de facto border unilaterally if peace talks remain stalled.

Israeli officials were tight-lipped on Thursday as interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert held hurried consultations.

Olmert, who assumed Ariel Sharon's powers after a January 4 stroke, is expected to win a March 28 election but lacks the credentials of ex-general Sharon as someone willing to use harsh measures against the uprising. Sharon had ordered the killing of top Hamas leaders and militants after attacks.

"If Sharon had been able to continue, things would have been better. He knew how to handle Hamas," said Yossi Amzalik, 52, a shop owner.

Israelis despair over Hamas victory

I don't know exactly why, perhaps it is just because I am a warped, twisted and very sick individual, but I have this little Sunday School ditty running in my haide, as I ponder a sweet Hamas victory:

mmmm. Hummus. Garlic Ginger hummus, with cashew butter instead of tahini. mmm.

The Traditional song:

Give me Oil in My Lamp,
Keep me burnin' burnin' burnin',
Give me oil in my lamp, I pray, Hallelujah!
Give me oil in my lamp,
Keep me burnin' burnin' burnin',
Keep me burnin' 'til the light o' day.

Of course, a slight tweaking of the lyrics a bit will give Hamas a new victory song:

Give me nails in my bomb,
Keep me 'splodin' 'splodin' 'splodin',
Give my nails in my bomb, I pray, Allah akbar!
Give my nails in my bomb,
Keep me 'splodin' 'splodin' 'splodin',
Keep me 'splodin' in that Jew-café!

Talk amongst yourselves. Add to the lyrics if you like.

What I am amazed at is that Israelis are in despair at all over this! They have been in denial concerning Fatah, deluding themselves into believing that just a wedge more of land will bring about a permanent peace, when clearly it hasn't. All a Hamas victory means is this: Hamas is the ruling party. If Israel is to survive the next attack, She must be prepared to declare war on a sovereign Hamastan and deal with them as a nation. That way, the entire electorate will pay. Treat them as the Nazis they are. Quit listening to State Dept flunkies and our president. Strike back!

"Hamas was not elected to carry out attacks against Israel. It was elected to bring about change," said Israeli analyst Yochanan Tsorev. "We have to see how things develop."

Even if he's right, what does it matter? For whatever reason, Hamas is in power. Does he really think Hamas cares why the people voted for them? "Gee, I'd sure like to strap on a bomb and head over to that market, or maybe just launch a few kassams at that school, but do we really have that mandate from the people?"

Throw the bums out! And by "the bums", I'm referring to the voters.

nuke the terrorists, and ONLY the terrorists

The rumors about us (the Israelis) being in a state of shock, zorkmidden, are greatly exaggerated. If anything, it is simpler to deal with a gang that says loud and clear what it means than with the double-tongued one we had to deal before.

This is exactly what Arik had in mind - stop that negotiate-bomb-revenge-negotiate farce, finish the fence, remove the difficult to defend outposts and close the border.

For a while it should suffice, then we shall see.

Cheer up all. How is MMax these days?

I was reading Haaretz last night. I stumbled upon the idiotic comments from one Yonatan, whose own idiocy he proudly displayed for all to read. The story was the upsurge of violence in the west bank and Gaza against girls and women. This particular story was about a 38 year old mother of eight who was murdered in broad daylight, because she was 'thought' to be having an adulterous affair...standard excuse for slaughtering all the females in the family, of course. But what put this tragedy over the top was Yonatan's belief that Israel's apartheid policies were to blame for the increasing violence against females in arab society.
I say this: What a relief it is for you Yonatan, to place blame on the shoulders of Israel, because it keeps YOU from having to do anything to help these women. All you need is a guilt trip, and voilà! Your liberal concern for the downtrodden is notarized, and there is so little work involved! Must be nice.

Well, still checking on chances for rare January severe weather outbreak for Eastern Texas, and maybe as far North as Eastern Oklahoma and Missouri. Forecast surface temps in upper teens (upper 60sF) with surface dewpoints around 10^oC into S.W. Missouri, with dewpoints near 15^o in Texas, wouldn't normally be that promising for severe weather.

But, its January, and the upper storm is somewhat cool and strong. So CAPE should exceed 500 Joules/Kg ahead of the front Saturday. Again, compared to Spring time CAPES over 3000 J/Kg, or the estimated CAPE of 7000+ J/Kg in Central Texas the day of the F-5 Jarrell tornado, that isn't that exciting. But we have cold mid-level temps, and pretty good mid-level lapse rates. Enough that the Total Totals Index, a function of 850 mb temp and dewpoint and 500 mb temps, is over 50 immediately ahead of the front from Missouri to Texas. Lifted indices are below zero, and are as high as -4^o. Now, in May, I'd be getting excited if we had LI of -10^oC. A big part of this, of course, is if we can get some breaks in the clouds Saturday, to allow the surface to warm a couple of degrees warmer, which would increase the magnitude of the negative LI, and the surface based CAPE. Some good jet energy involved as well, with SWEAT Index over 350 just ahead of the front.

Tornado threat fairly low, partly due modest low level instability, partly due my suspicions most activity will form into line segments, but hail and damaging winds gives us something to hope for.

Explanation of Total-Totals and Sweat Index, for those wondering what I am talking about.

But what put this tragedy over the top was Yonatan's belief that Israel's apartheid policies were to blame for the increasing violence against females in arab society.

So, he's advocating that Saudi Arabia allow Jews to live there...right?

I love it when a plan (mumble Elon mumble) comes together!

The Hitlerjugend has elevated the NSDAP to power.

All UN, European and American aid will now be frozen, Israel can turn off the electricity, no more Jewish hospitals at your service! Time for the Jordyptians to either go home or go to hell!

O happy, happy day.

Snoopy, I didn't think that Israelis were really in a state of shock over this, they'd have to be living under a rock for the past 10 years :-) I just hope and pray for the best.

We haven't seen MMax yesterday or today yet, he may be out of town.

Time for a nap for jau jau. Carry on!

There are two good articles on NRO
one by Emanuele Ottolenghi
Hamas Without Veils
No more hiding behind the PA.

And the other by Arlene Kushner
Illusory Differences
Fatah and Hamas, birds of a feather.

The face of Hamas has been considerably more honest. In continuing to promote terrorism while joining the political fray, Hamas has actually further radicalized the public agenda:Fatah now speaks more openly about continuing the revolution.

In light of this history, and the current situation, the Western dismay at Hamas winning over Fatah is bewildering. In the end, it may not matter much.

#3 Jauhara

What I am amazed at is that Israelis are in despair at all over this!

As SnoopyTheGoon said not everybody is despairing.
Watching an interview with Netanyahu this might have been the impression given that he is stumping to be elected and is trying to hype everything to a point of hysteria.
No wonder Sharon said those things about him panicking.

Armed Liberal is happy. And I think he's right.

So do I

So one of two things will happen. Hamas will be forced to make accommodations to reality - or it will lead the Palestinian state to destruction.

Are we taking bets yet on which of the two will happen?

And does anyone think that Fatah will just accept a Hamas victory and go along?

Armed Liberal has some valid points but to be happy? Where does he live that he's happy about this? I assume not in Israel.

Well now that the terrorists have won and are legitimate, let's fund them.

Carter calls for funding Palestinians

Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization

This jacka*s never ceases to amaze amuse me.

#23 RWC, I'm just speechless.

Hey zulubaby :-) Tell us some of the reaction over there.

zorkie, I'll let you know a bit later. I've been sick today, feeling like crap. This doesn't help any.

Aww... I'm sorry you're sick zb, I hope you feel better. I'm sure this doesn't help.

I'm so aggravated :-(

Heh, heh - I said number two

Well, obviously I'm the only one who is deliriously happy, then. The masks are off (same with Iran), Hamas is on the blacklist of terrorist organizations everywhere, there's no plausible deniability anymore for the aid donors.

And as a bonus we will have philistines murdering philistines. Can it get any better?

(yes!)

zulubaby

Hamas is on the blacklist of terrorist organizations everywhere, there's no plausible deniability anymore for the aid donors.

I think what will happen is that they'll follow the Fatah model, they'll have the terrorist arm of Hamas which will continue the attacks on Israel, and the political arm which will be governing and which will continue to receive money from EU and US because it will be dissasociating itself and supposedly condemning terror and simultaneously claiming helplessness. They had a good role model in Arafat all these years, they won't let all that talent go to waste.

zulubaby -

I don't believe that Hamas winning elections will make them significantly more militarily (or terroristicly) effective against Israel.

But it for damn sure makes them more vulnerable to Israel.

And this will aid Israel immensely in the ongoing PR war. Is there any better gift, when trying to get positive spin for your guys, than to have your opposition be on record as being a bunch of genocidal lunatics?

Look at post #23 by RWC. The U.S. public will stand in line for hours just to get a chance to pile on admitted terror-enablers like Carter.

In the mid-run, at least, this turn of events is, I think, good for Israel.

Sure they'll try that, but the point is, Fatah was not on the blacklist, Hamas is. The Rubicon has been crossed.

#32 zorkmidden

Good morning/afternoon, zorkie!

Hamas has a political wing?

The cynic in me says these election results should strip away the last vestiges of the "Palestinian people want peace" smoke screen. They just want war, even if means their own destruction.

#35 Good morning/afternoon, Lewis :-) I don't know, how long did it take the PLO to change theirs? (Did they ever change it?)

But I'm real busy right now, and don't have the time to check for sure.

I still find it interesting that the "corruption" factor influenced voters so much. Ninety five percent of Palestinian voters said that corruption was their major concern. What does that even mean? It wasn't Israel, it wasn't the checkpoints, it wasn't the fence, the issue was corruption.

Which is funny, the corruption issue I mean, because once Hamas is in office, there'll be just as much corruption as there was before, it's inevitable, imo. Politicians will still take bribes, gunmen will still rule the streets, what will change? How will they remain "uncorrupted"?

zorkmidden and Lewis

Although the Palestinian National Council (PNC) has twice taken formal decisions to revise the Palestinian National Covenant (1996 and 1998) calling for Israel's destruction, the PNC Chairman, Salim Za'anoun, stated on February 3, 2001, in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, that the Palestinian Covenant remained unchanged and was still in force [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 3 February 2001, as translated by MEMRI].

Not that changing it would matter though.

Thanks, RWC. And that didn't stop us from giving them huge amounts of aid all these years, why would anything change now?

I'd like to believe the optimists, and there is now a certain amount of clarity, at least at the moment, about Hamas's stance (unlike the so-called moderate Fatah).

But if today's CBC news broadcasts are anything to go by, I think that's unlikely to last. CBC kept beating the "corruption" drum and repeated that, although Hamas's charter still calls for Israel's destruction, they took that out of their election platform--in other words, implying very strongly that they were only elected because of Fatah corruption and that the call for Israel's destruction would have played badly with the electorate.

Although I'm sure there's a significant portion of the electorate who were indeed voting Fatah out rather than Hamas in, I think Hamas removed that plank from their election platform far more for foreign considerations than for local ones. And there's been just about no coverage that I can find of the mother of the suicide bombers, which surely gives the lie to the implication that most Palestinians want to give up the "armed struggle."

zulubaby

Love you, zorkie.

Hamas Victory Stuns Palestinian Pols

Palestinian leaders, stunned by the militant group's sweeping victory

Leaders around the world were shocked by Hamas' victory

I don't understand how anyone can be "stunned" or "shocked", especially people who are involved in politics. Where have they been living, ffs?!

I just saw that Semite 1973 (Zak) thinks the same as I do.

The US State Department, the EU, and of course Israel, have all pledged that they will not deal with Hamas, which all view as a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel’s obliteration. However, there have been reports for months that the Europeans and elements in the State Department have been putting out feelers to the non-military wings of Hamas, despite all of the formers' recent tough talk in the wake of these elections.

But what we are seeing now will be nothing but a repeat of what we saw with the PLO back in the late 80’s (or was it early ‘90’s, I don’t recall exactly and don’t feel like looking it up). The point is this: The PLO was on the books as officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Although the State Department and Europeans drooled at the idea of Israel and the PLO recognizing each other and negotiating, it took some time before Arafat finally uttered the words that the PLO rejected terror and recognized Israel’s right to exist. Once that happened, Israel agreed to enter into negotiations with the representatives of the PLO, and eventually recognized the PLO. Finally this all led up to the Oslo Accords in the early ‘90’s.

But what we are seeing now will be nothing but a repeat of what we saw with the PLO

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Kerry has called for a filibuster on Alito...is anyone surprised??

The insistence Thursday by the Bush administration and key European leaders that they will not talk to the clear victors in the Palestinian elections until Hamas renounces terrorism and accepts Israel's right to exist is likely to define the prospects for Middle Eastern diplomacy - for as long as the ban lasts.

There are, however, three powerful reasons why this ban may not last, or at least may not mean quite what it says. The first is that a similar ban on dealings with the Palestinian Liberation Organization did not prevent discreet talks through third parties, usually the Algerians.

The second is West is financial. The spending of the PA government, including the salaries of its officials, health service and construction industry, is very largely dependent on funding from the European Union. The economic collapse and social despair that are likely to follow a complete breakdown of the Palestinian state could swiftly become a humanitarian crisis.

The third and probably crucial reason why Hamas may yet end up talking to the West is that there is a profound contradiction between a ban on talks with Hamas and the Bush administration's commitment to promote democracy in the Middle East.

"The United States can't promote democracy but then reject the results of this democracy," commented Amr Moussa, head of the Arab League.

Walker's World: Will Hamas listen?

'Nuff said.

What a sorry lot. To quote Bob Dylan, it's a wonder they can even feed themselves.

"The United States can't promote democracy but then reject the results of this democracy," commented Amr Moussa, head of the Arab League

This is the crux of the problem. The Administration talks about democracy as if it were some new-time religion.

Democracy will only work in a peace-loving society. It will not bring peace if the voters don't want peace. I fear the US Admin. hasn't internalised that little fact yet.

annie, that's because they read Natan Sharansky, and yet failed to understand him.

The BBC (which 'stands shoulder to shoulder' with Hamas) is running a comments section about this. Palestinian elections: Your views

I've only read a few, but here is one by a German:

Adolf Hilter got to power by an overwhelming "democratic" majority. This is prove and outstanding expample of the tragical misleading of "democratic" voting, if basic rules of mutual collaboration and acceptance are not observed. So, like the German people in 1933 was not mature to vote democratic - are likewise people today, who question the right of existence of their neighbours and advocate the application of rude force.

RC neo-Jew:

For one minute, it feels good to be German.

RC NJ - Wow! I'm delighted that a German sees right through the rubbish to the truth inside. I'm even more amazed that the BBC saw fit to publish it. Though I think the Germans are probably more aware of the dangers of enforcing democracy when "the people aren't mature enough" than other Europeans.

My only concern about this is that Hamas will get smart and start pretending like Arafat and Abbas did. The way things are, Israel's short list of friendemies (EU, State, France, U.N., NGOs, et al) will just be looking more and more schewpid when they make excuses for the Pals. - See Jimmah: RWC #23. I have noticed that since Gaza, despite MSM spin and statements from Jimmy, Israel is more accepted as a reasonable country. The Iranian threats have also helped. TG for Hamas's honesty!

Psst: Just for fun, here's Canada's new Prime Mincester on Israel and also telling the U.S. to butt out. (I agree with him on the U.S.. Ambassador Wilkins was out of line, although it may well have been a set-up or a test.) Prime minister-designate indicates Canada won’t recognize Palestinian Hamas government

evariste - I've wondered the same thing, whether Hamas will try to play the Arafat/Abbas game or go the way of Iran. My gut is Iran.

btw, I met joem & family earlier today. His kids are even cuter in person.

Oh, how lovely, Jefe! As for the comment you replied to, it was greenmamba's, I reposted it for him because it was good and Blacklist rejected it for containing the string "in-cest" (Min-cester). I just forgot to change my nick first.

Jefe, that was actually greenmamba :-) ev had to paste his comment in because it got blacklisted.

Did you pinch the baby's cheeks? (She's totally adorable from the photos I've seen)

Why are you so fast, ev, why?

No, the baby was sound asleep, and I wasn't about to mess that up!

That's great to have another DL connection! His kids are just adorable from the photos (as zorkie says).

WHEN we get back your way, Jefe (I say when, and not if), I hope we can time it to meet a lot of you east-coasters ;-)

I'm looking forward to it, floranista!

greenmamba, thanks for the info (#57). I've just sent Harper an email begging him to stick to that.

and #56 annie

I've just attended a Holocaust memorial event. After the 'official' memorial service, people were invited to step up to the microphone for a few minutes if they wanted to share any thoughts on the subject. A young German women stepped forward, clearly very nervous, and she too said that Hitler hadn't been forced on the Germans, a democratic process had been involved, and - I can't remember all she said - but the gist was that people bear responsibility for the decisions they make and it is up to us to make the right ones. She sited the recent example of neo-Nazis having permission to march in Berlin, only being prevented by a large counter-demonstration of Germans determined they weren't going to go down that path again.

RC neo-Jew--

Would that our Muslim friends might figure out the error of their ways before attempting another Holocaust. They might start by cleaning up their own backyard.

How long before the EU follows Carter's example? Carter: Give Hamas a chance

Former President Carter urged the international community to fund a Hamas-led Palestinian government.

“The Palestinian government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming,� Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference Thursday. He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a government led by Hamas — which the United States and others consider a terrorist organization — money could be given to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels.

Carter, who led an international observer team that pronounced the vote free and fair, said Hamas might act “responsibly� once it took power.

It just makes me sick.

I'll see you in a little bit bloggie, be good.

I nominate Dhimmi Carter for the first American president to be stripped of his citizenship.

Compared to him, Richard M. Nixon was a saint.

Then perhaaps he could seek asylum in Gaza and apply for Palestinian citizenship?

You know I meant perhaps and not perhaaps or even perhaaaaps.

Past my bedtime...

Wasn't Clinton worse than Carter??

#73 marine momma--

Getting a BJ from a floozy in the White House does not even come close to the sewage that Dhimmi Carter routinely swims in. I'd allow Clinton into my home, as long as he was up for some spirited debate. Carter? I would not even shake his hand.

#71 RC neo-Jew:

Word.

2) Which President fearfully retreated in the face of a killer bunny rabbit?

You make the call.

O.k., but Clinton gave major secrets away to the Chinese and God only knows who else.

Anyway, my browser's homepage is set to my local paper's website.

So, what AP headline do I find upon returning home?

Hamas Wins Palestinian Election
Mideast Peace Uncertain After Upset

Do they mean to imply that Mideast Peace was certain before?

This is just crazy. Peace was hopeless before, and it's hopeless now.

They might as well break in with the update that Generallisimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

#76 marine momma:

Could Clinton ever hope to top this?

And could I see a source as to Clinton's giving away secrets to the Chinese?

I would not allow Clinton into my house because there are WOMEN here. Lots of them.

I would like to discuss some world events with him, though, as I think he is tremendously smart (even if morally bankrupt).

I would also like to talk to Dick Morris, John McCain, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Joe Lieberman, and a few dead people (Jesus tops that list).

I would run screaming if I ever saw the Ragin' Cajun. I swear, the man is the current Earth incarnation of the Faustian devil.

I know he is. (spit, spit, sign of the cross)

Which President fearfully retreated in the face of a killer bunny rabbit?

One of my all time favorite moments in history.

THe first time I saw photos and heard the story I blew snot out my nose laughing.

Don't forget: lusted after Dolly Parton's boobies in his heart and saw a UFO.

Er, which Clinton are you talking about? :)

lusted after Dolly Parton's boobies in his heart

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
-- Matthew 5:28.

If KJV is to be believed, Jesus invented thoughtcrime.

FWIW, solus, that is not a crime but a sin -- however one that I don't get all that guilty about.

"There are only two sins: murder and deliberate infliction of pain." -- John Shade

While I was out dorking the wogs (may the Central Scrutinizer not be offended) I put myself in Hamas's shoes (eww, I know).

They suddenly have an entity to run and the people have expectations. They must have some sort of organization that does all that charity work about which we hear but this is all of Palestine, uncertain borders and all. I would imagine they'll be busy appointing a cabinet and figuring things out and maybe not focus on Jew killing for a short time. Then they'll face the reality of people expecting salaries and possibly some reluctance on the part of their benefactors to deliver. I am sure there must be logistic issues on which they need to talk to the colonial, genocidal occupiers as well.

What may happen is that the leadership starts to get into the governance thing while the Mama Farahats and friends get unsettled about the dearth of Jew murder.

With any luck they'll be fighting amongst themselves in no time.

This is bad.

Think about the money. Without Western cash, the PA collapses. So Hamas has to go to Iran, Saudi Arabia, al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, to stay afloat. So you get a terror state beholden to the worst people in the region within sight of Jerusalem. If anyone thinks the fence is going to be enough...

I've always thought that the Henry Morgan precedent motivated the dealings with the PLO. (The British Empire made the notorious pirate Governor of Jamaica in charge of ending piracy, and he hanged all his old friends and associates in the 17th C.) It didn't work with the PLO. I think for Hamas to gain the aid, they will have to hold the hangings first.

Matt -- while it may be bad, it is clear. Clarity has value.

Big Lizard on the subject at hand

And fruitcake.

The Palinazis have shown themselves unequivocally to be a bunch of psychotic, Nazi, genocidal animals, so convulsed with Jew-hatred that their society is sick beyond cure and completely disfunctional. There is no hope that these psychotic animals can be cured. They are a bunch of Nazi psychos.

The sooner Israel puts these rabid dogs out of their misery by nuking them off the face of the earth, the better for everyone.

And I can only imagine how many millions of Europeans are jerking off in orgiastic Jewhating ecstasy at the thought that these Hamas Jewkilling heroes of theirs will finish the work of their greatest hero (to both the Palinazis and Euronazis) - Adolf Hitler.

Hey Europe, Israel has nukes to spare after she obliterates the Arabs and Iran, got it?

Ahhh, M-Max, always a breath o' fresh air! Just like taking a shower in [AHEM] Ireland.

See that you copped my abbreviated handle fer yez. I'm flattered.

Say, I spent the last few days in New Jersey. A damned shame that we weren't able to get together n' blow shit up!

Bigel, have you read the book Jerusalem Countdown?

lfq #91:

"Then -- and possibly only then, alas -- will real peace become possible... at least for ten or twelve years. Until the madness once again strikes the Palestinians, and we must go through the whole belly-dance of a "peace process," followed by a war process, followed by another temporary peace.

Wilhelm Reich famously dissected the Mass Psychology of Fascism; I wonder if he ever considered the Mass Bipolar Disorder of the Moslems?"

Wilhelm Reich is not needed -- it's all right there in their book: hudna, the treaty of Hudaybiya, etc.

I could think of a few areas in Paterson and Jersey City worth targeting, and I don't mean because of black and Latino populations.

M-Max--

I was in New Jersey in 2002 and avoided a trip to Manhattan because I didn't want to see the "altered" skyline.

Went to dinner in Times Square this time. I'm dealing with it. Strangely enough, I think 9/11 has made New Yorkers better people.

So you think 3,000 more of us should die, that would make us even better?

Using your logic, if we are nuked and 300,000 of us die, the rest of New York will be populated by saints.

#88 Matt

Hamas has to go to Iran, Saudi Arabia, al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, to stay afloat.

Well these guys have not supported the Pals for 57 years. They've only given money in support of terror but none openly admits it. If they start funding a Hamas that's nuts-on-gaga then the jig's up.

Methinks it's going to get interesting and ..... may not be all that bad. (Yes I read the Winds Of Change piece and respectfully disagree with Colt.)

Having a multi-party election is fine start when done in the right context. It is respect for ongoing democratic processes that causes nations not to be threats to each other.

Threats to Israel, as important as they are, aside, will there ever be another legislative election in the territories ? I doubt it. That isn't what Hamas is about.

Remember what happened in Czechoslovakia in the late 40s. Communists legitimately won a national election. They didn't have another free election for over 40 years.

Fine article today by Efraim Karsh, author of Arafat's War at TNR

WHY HAMAS'S VICTORY ISN'T SUCH A BAD THING.
Silver Lining
by Efraim Karsh

Hamas's apparent victory in the elections for Palestinian parliament creates a thorny dilemma for Israel, the United States, and the European Union: how to deal with a Palestinian government dominated by what all three have branded a terrorist organization. Yet there is a potential silver lining in this development. Not because it may transform Hamas into an ordinary political party that eschews violence and terrorism in favor of "more moderate policies," as suggested by Jimmy Carter among others, but because Hamas's win might trigger a widespread disillusionment with the mirage--created by the Oslo process--of a democratic and peace-loving Palestinian government.

A good place to start is to acknowledge that the Palestinian elections were a contest not between a democratic party and a terror organization but rather between two unreconstructed terrorist groups, which were supposed to be disarmed and dismantled in accordance with the agreements signed by Israel and the PLO and the roadmap to peace announced in 2003 by the Quartet (the United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia). While Hamas's terrorist credentials need no elaboration, Fatah boasts a far longer terrorist record, dating back to January 1965 and including bombings, airplane hijacking, and countless massacres of innocent civilians throughout the world--Arab, Israeli, and Western--most notably at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Marwan Barghouti, who headed the Fatah electoral list, is serving five consecutive life sentences in an Israeli prison for murder and attempted murder.

Nor does the PLO-dominated P.A., established in May 1994 as part of the Oslo process, come anywhere near to being a liberal democracy. Rather it is an oppressive and corrupt regime, where the rule of the gun prevails and large sums of money donated by the international community for the benefit of the civilian Palestinian population are diverted to funding racist incitement, buying weaponry, and filling secret bank accounts. Extensive protection and racketeering networks run by P.A. officials proliferate, while the national budget is plundered at will by PLO veterans and Arafat cronies. It is, in fact, this oppressive and corrupt governance that has allowed Hamas to win widespread popular support by creating an extensive system of social-welfare handouts that substitutes for the services the P.A. has failed to provide.

Equally misconceived is the perception of Palestinian society as locked in an ideological struggle between secular modernizers and religious radicals. Since its rise in the early seventh century, Islam has constituted the linchpin of Middle Eastern politics, and its hold on Palestinian society is far stronger than is commonly recognized. Arafat was a devout Muslim, associated in his early days with the militant Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas's parent organization, as were other founding fathers of Fatah. And while the new generation of Fatah leaders in the territories may be less religious, they nevertheless have a draft constitution for a prospective Palestinian state that stipulates "Islam shall be the official religion of Palestine" and Sharia--which relegates non-Muslims to a legally inferior position--"shall be a major source of legislation."

Finally, and contrary to another widely accepted myth, there is no fundamental difference between the ultimate goals of Hamas and Fatah vis-a-vis Israel: Neither accepts the Jewish state's right to exist and both are committed to its eventual destruction. The only difference between the two groups lies in their preferred strategies for the attainment of this goal. Whereas Hamas concentrates exclusively on "armed struggle," as its murderous terror campaign is conveniently euphemized, the PLO has adopted since the early 1990s a more subtle strategy, combining intricate political and diplomatic maneuvering with sustained terror attacks (mainly under the auspices of Tanzim, Fatah's military arm). Hence the refusal of Arafat and more recently Abbas to disarm Hamas (and Islamic Jihad), as required by the Oslo accords and the roadmap; and hence their tacit approval of the murder of hundreds of Israelis by these groups. In the candid words of Farouq Qaddoumi, the PLO's perpetual foreign minister: "We were never different from Hamas. Hamas is a national movement. Strategically, there is no difference between us."

The PLO's duplicity of speaking the language of peace while backing terrorism worked impeccably. Fatigued by decades of fighting, and yearning for a normalcy that would allow them at last to enjoy their recently won affluence, many Israelis, followed by the international community at large, naively clung to the Oslo process, turning a blind eye to the growing terrorist infrastructure in the Palestinian territories. And while Arafat overplayed his hand by launching his war of terror in September 2000, his death rekindled the widespread illusion that Palestinian politics have entered a new and far more promising era.

The international community thus ignored the fact that for all their drastically different personalities and political style, Arafat and Abbas were both dogmatic PLO veterans who never eschewed their commitment to Israel's destruction and who viewed the "peace process" as the continuation of their lifetime war by other means. It whitewashed Abbas's adamant refusal to fight terrorism as a reflection of political weakness (as it had done with Arafat in the early Oslo years) and turned a blind eye to his repeated calls for the destruction of Israel through demographic subversion (via the so-called "right of return").

In these circumstances, where the real choice is between a plain-speaking extremist organization advocating the destruction of a neighboring state and a corrupt and repressive regime couching its intentions in hollow peace rhetoric whenever addressing non-Arab audiences, Hamas may prove the lesser of two evils. By leaving no doubt about its true nature and raising no false expectations of imminent peace and democracy, it helps expose the deep malaise of the Palestinian political system and the attendant need for its fundamental overhaul.

There is, of course, the risk that, in its dealings with the world community, Hamas will adopt its predecessor's duplicitous conduct so as to maintain the extraordinary level of international aid enjoyed by the Palestinians since the mid-1990s. This might well dupe naive do-gooders. Yet one hopes that Hamas's victory will cause the international community to pay closer attention to what the Palestinian authorities tell their own people and wider Arab constituencies. As for Israelis, yesterday's election results will have the virtue of creating clarity in their political debate. Now, as it weighs unilateral withdrawal and other policy options, Israel can at least do so without illusions.

Who the f*ck are YOU kidding? Hamas is a bunch of crazed, psychotic, Nazi animals who care about one and only one thing -- wiping the Jews off the face of the earth -- and they don't give a shit if every other Pali dies in the effort to accomplish that. And any Palis who don't like it will be arrested, tortured, and executed. And they will claim that they are Israeli spies and other Palinazis will take it upon themselves to massacre the dead person's family.

The only way Hamas will be driven from power is when Gaza and the West Bank are completely obliterated. Anything short of that, the crazed, psychotic, degenerate Palinazi population will support these animals so long as they are trying to kill Jews, because that is ALL that matters to these animals.

The Palinazis have declared this a battle to the death. So be it. THEY are the ones who will meet death.

#100 M-Max--

No, that's not what I mean. If I had it to do over again, 9/11 would have never happened. If I could go back to the New York I used to live in and hear people snarl and scream at each other all day, that would certainly be preferable to that dark day in September.

But that's history now. Might as well look for the daisy in the coal slag--know what I'm sayin?

#100 M-Max

So you think 3,000 more of us should die, that would make us even better?

Using your logic, if we are nuked and 300,000 of us die, the rest of New York will be populated by saints.

LOL! Glad you're here to lighten the gloomy mood of this thread, Max.

Plus you're teh hotness.

A Hamas victory takes us one step closer to a second Shoah and a civilization-ending nuclear war. How the f*ck can you joke about shit like this?

I first noticed it on September the 12th: people trying to be gentle with each other. To be a NYer means to move as fast as possible. This means saying "excuse me" after bumping into the 43rd person you've hit in a block carries an unacceptable cost in time. But after 9/11, people at least tried to smile after a bump (and you get bumped all day long), and the snarls dissipated.

Pete has concluded that niceness is better. It is at least nicer -- I am unclear as to its underlying moral virtue.

You can poke fun all you want Franco, but I would suggest that you take your chances with Mr. Morales and Bolivia.

It might be one of the few places that will survive the upcoming Armageddon after Israel, in a dying last gasp in the second shoah, launches nukes at Russia.

Whether you'd want to live in a post-apocalyptic Bolivia, is another matter.

Bring oxygen.

What would be the essential differerence between post-apocalyptic and pre-apocalyptic Bolivia?

You won't need electric lights in the post-apocalyptic Bolivia to see at night.

M-max LOL

This is simply a victory for burkha wearing, koran waving and tushie-shaving.

Seriosly, might it not be better for the Zionists to have Hamas in government, where they will actually have to do things like collect the garbage and pump the sewage, and get blamed when things inevitably go wrong?

Logic has nothing to do with it. When "things inevitably go wrong" it will always be the fault of the perfidious Jews.

Logic has nothing to do with it. When "things inevitably go wrong" it will always be the fault of the perfidious Jews.

What was Aisha thinking? Of course! There are the Jews, there are the djinns, and there is the shaitaan, and between the three of them, everything can be explained away, praise Allah!

So what's with the winning team baseball cap thingy?

#107 M-Max

A Hamas victory takes us one step closer to a second Shoah and a civilization-ending nuclear war. How the f*ck can you joke about shit like this?

As if no one in the entire history of the world has ever laughed in the face of impending armageddon ...

Kinky Sex Makes the World Go 'Round
by The Dead Kennedys

Greetings... This is the Secretary at the State Department of the United States... We have a problem. The companies want something done about this sluggish world economic situation... Profits have been running a little thin lately and we need to stimulate some growth... Now we know there's an alarming high number of young people roaming around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble for the police and damage private property. It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job... It's about time we did something constructive with these people... We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over... The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together - and start another war... The president? He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro... Napalm... People running down the road, skin on fire... The Soviets seem up for it... The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years. Hell, Afghanistan's no fun... So whadya say?... We don't even have to win this war. We just want to cut down on some of this excess population... Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can. We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on, hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use an automatic riffle and send 'em on their way... Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland? Or a 'moderately repressive regime' in South America? We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story in the Middle East - we need that oil... We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad didn't even show up. I tell ya... that man is unreliable. The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one... Now just think for a minute - we can make this war so big - so BIG... The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper... We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queues if we plan this right. Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls... Now don't worry about those demonstrators - just pump up your drug supply. So many people have hooked themselves on heroin and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam. We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong. Kept the war functioning just fine... It's easy. We've got our college kids so interested in beer they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again. Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard, they wouldn't even know what it looked like... So how 'bout it? Look - war is money. The arms manufacturers tell me unless we get our bomb factories up to full production the whole economy is going to collapse... The Soviets are in the same boat. We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?... That's excellent. We knew you'd agree... the companies will be very pleased.

Holy cow, the bald guy looks exactly like my uncle! You don't think that... nah.

LMAO!! DMT and cba jinxed! :-D

And now, because I can, I'm going to share with you the ugliest SOB's in the parade.

Just for that you can tell your partner in crime he has to remind everyone to vote for Jewlicious tomorrow.

We're all voting for Jewlicious, no worries (or my shviger will kill me :-)

Zorkie, meant to say thanx for your kind words about my NYC post last night.

BTW, while waiting for the ferry to the Statue of Liberty, I at one point launched into my beloved German faux-accent: "Do you joke mit me? Do not joke mit me, fur I am a German und I haf no sense of humor." Suddenly I saw a very tall, crew-cut man who looked like an elongated Dieter (the Mike Myers character). "Heike? Peter? Hier. Schnell!" He quickly gathered his children and spirited them away.

Somehow I think M. Max would have been proud of me.

what's shviger?

florrie,
[Invis-O-Text™: ON]
mother-in-law
[Invis-O-Text™: OFF]

Well DUH, and all that entails.

Now I'm just effing pissed. Ok, Palestinians in Gaza, with what you haven't yet destroyed, how about you build your own economy and some schools and hospitals, make something for yourselves you can be proud of, besides your hatred of Israel.

I'm waiting, but I'm not holding my breath.

Hi, bloggie! Just got back..

Hi joem, welcome back :)

G'night bloggie, sweet dreams all, and good day to those on the other side of the globe.

Hi joem, how was your trip? Jefe told us you guys met :-)

Good night Sojo, sweet dreams :-)

Night night Sojo - sleep tight!

Hi, zorkie! Yup, we met up with Jefe.
It was pretty cold in Washington today.
Hold on, I'm downloading pictures...

We drove past the monument..

Here's Michael:

Fay, I think that's actually an improvement for MJ :-)

joem, looking forward to the pictures.

Fay, LOL! V the K did a great captioning of that the other day (or was it just yesterday..?)

Spent most of our time in the Smithsonian Air & Space museum..

Hey joem, I didn't even know you were going on a trip. Where did you go to from?

The reflecting pool was pretty choppy..

LOL! The kids look cold :-)

While waiting for our turn for a tour of the Capitol building we ducked into the Conservatory of teh National Gardens. They just opened an exhibit of orchids! It was so humid in there (my oldest daughter said it was "moisty" :) that my camera lense fogged up, which gave the pictures a very surreal look..

Part of the rotundra:

Gorgeous.

My daughter kept telling me how much better the Capitol looked through her sunglasses.

Hey joem, can I post that second orchid-house pic to my blog? Too cool! (duly credited, of course...)

Yes, it is, but so would a Fatah victory have been bad.

I really like the blue sunglasses!

That would be the one. I think I'd call it "Global Warming."

LOL! Sure..

Thankee, joem. I'll post the link here tomorrow. Is that one of your kids in the photo?

Your children are intolerably adorable, joem. There oughtta be a law.

Sorry to post all this on such a 'serious' thread.. Actually, when I heard this news on the radio this morning, I laughed out loud. God has such an ironic sense of humor.

joem, I feel your pain. I had one of those too (now the most misanthropic of the Jewlicious crew).

15 days until the wedding!

Anyway, I'm having a (well-deserved) SNPA

L'chaim ev, zorkie, Fay, Pete (Alois) and anyone else who's joining!

Cheers, joem and everyone! :-)

15 days until the wedding!

That's wonderful, Fay! I'm so happy for you and Matt. :-D

L'chaim :-)

Fay, how awesome! :-)

Man, that's so close, Fay! Or should I say, Mrs. Radio :-)

I think she should change her nick to RadioFay after the wedding :-)

joem, thanks so much for sharing those pictures, they are wonderful!
It is especially exciting to see pictures from the National Garden as there are NONE yet released. I had to use pics from the Botanic Conservatory instead. What a thrill that you could go there. And the Washington monument looks so tall!

Now how about a picture of Sweet Baby James from Fay, hmmm?

Don't make me come over there.

It is especially exciting to see pictures from the National Garden as there are NONE yet released. I had to use pics from the Botanic Conservatory instead. What a thrill that you could go there.

florrie, I was thinking of you when I was there. I only wish I had more time to explore (and take more pictures). We only had about 15-20 minutes there.

Now how about a picture of Sweet Baby James from Fay, hmmm?

Your wish is my command Miss florrie.

joem, you are just so lucky to be able to make a day trip of it.

We lived in NY when I was very young, I don't remember too much about it and I haven't been back since; we'll get there yet ;-)

Awww, Fay - he is so beautiful! Have you seen him in person yet?

Not yet, will have to wait until I'm next in the UK.

Don't make me come over there.

flori, LOL! That should scare the flu right out of me.

Fay, baby James is absolutely gorgeous.

Back to bed ... see you guys a little later.

"I have a giant roar!"-LMAO!!

'Night zb.

zorkie and I are going to bed pretty soon too. Sleep tight bloggie :-)

Good night bloggie. zulubaby, I hope you feel better.

Good night everyone. Get to feeling better, zulubaby.
This dang flu in intercontinental, I think most of us have had it (and it's awful).

M-Max

Here's Emanuele Ottolenghi on the Hamas Victory:
Hamas Without Veils

What victory does to Hamas is to put the movement into an impossible position....They will have to show their true face now......There will be no excuses or ambiguities when Hamas fires rockets on Israel and launches suicide attacks against civilian targets....

The most interesting comment he makes is:

Hamas’s favored outcome was not victory, but a strong showing that would leave Hamas with the best of both worlds: It would remain in opposition ... but would impose severe limitations on the Fatah-led government on how to manage its relations with Israel.

This is supported by:

Hamas has already asked Fatah to form a coalition and got a negative response.

... and I'm not done yet.

Victory leaves Hamas with a dilemma by Anton Lala Guardia in Das Telegraf.

greenmamba, I take those points but I still think they're going to do the old "political" and "military" split and be back to the situation with the PA. Because anyone with a brain knew that the PA were supporting, planning, funding, and carrying out terrorist acts, but they could pretend to be powerless and "condemn" them when they happened.

Watch out for the "new, pragmatic" Hamas to appear. People are already looking for it.

Maybe CBA and it worries me too. However, Hamas really are ideologically driven and when they try to be cute they generally mess up when someone who doesn't "get it" speaks up.

"Time will tell" (he said sagaciously and exited blog left.)

joem--

Here ye be.

Many thanks!

Thanks, Pete :-)