Israeli Avi Zana listened with horror on Thursday to news that the Hamas militant group that killed his son had won Palestinian elections.

On the streets of the Jewish state, there was grave concern at the victory of the Hamas movement that carried out nearly 60 suicide bombings during a Palestinian uprising and is formally dedicated to destroying Israel.

"The Palestinians have shown their true face by electing Hamas," said Zana, 46. "The group does not want control of the Palestinian Authority, it wants control of all Israel."

Among those expected to win seats in the new Palestinian parliament was Mariam Farhat, also known as Umm Nidal, who in a video tape message urged her sons to carry out attacks -- including the one on a Jewish settlement in which Zana's 18-year-old-son was killed.

Hamas has largely followed a truce for the past year and played down its charter commitment to get rid of Israel during the campaign.

Its victory was seen by Palestinians mostly as a vote for change from the dominant Fatah movement, long accused of corruption and misrule.

"Hamas was not elected to carry out attacks against Israel. It was elected to bring about change," said Israeli analyst Yochanan Tsorev. "We have to see how things develop."

But such suggestions have done little to ease the fears of many Israelis.

"It is hard not to be even more pessimistic now about peacemaking prospects here," said Shimi Breutman, 22, a travel guide.

"We could see this whole place engulfed in even further chaos. Israel has to tread very carefully."

Peace talks collapsed in 2000 before the uprising started.

Israel, joined by the United States, refuses to negotiate with Hamas until it disarms and changes its charter.

Following Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip last year, Israeli leaders have mooted a possible further withdrawal from parts of the West Bank to set a de facto border unilaterally if peace talks remain stalled.

Israeli officials were tight-lipped on Thursday as interim Prime Minister Ehud Olmert held hurried consultations.

Olmert, who assumed Ariel Sharon's powers after a January 4 stroke, is expected to win a March 28 election but lacks the credentials of ex-general Sharon as someone willing to use harsh measures against the uprising. Sharon had ordered the killing of top Hamas leaders and militants after attacks.

"If Sharon had been able to continue, things would have been better. He knew how to handle Hamas," said Yossi Amzalik, 52, a shop owner.

Israelis despair over Hamas victory

"Hamas was not elected to carry out attacks against Israel. It was elected to bring about change," said Israeli analyst Yochanan Tsorev. "We have to see how things develop."

Even if he's right, what does it matter? For whatever reason, Hamas is in power. Does he really think Hamas cares why the people voted for them? "Gee, I'd sure like to strap on a bomb and head over to that market, or maybe just launch a few kassams at that school, but do we really have that mandate from the people?"

But what put this tragedy over the top was Yonatan's belief that Israel's apartheid policies were to blame for the increasing violence against females in arab society.

So, he's advocating that Saudi Arabia allow Jews to live there...right?

The face of Hamas has been considerably more honest. In continuing to promote terrorism while joining the political fray, Hamas has actually further radicalized the public agenda:Fatah now speaks more openly about continuing the revolution.

In light of this history, and the current situation, the Western dismay at Hamas winning over Fatah is bewildering. In the end, it may not matter much.

What I am amazed at is that Israelis are in despair at all over this!

As SnoopyTheGoon said not everybody is despairing.
Watching an interview with Netanyahu this might have been the impression given that he is stumping to be elected and is trying to hype everything to a point of hysteria.
No wonder Sharon said those things about him panicking.

So one of two things will happen. Hamas will be forced to make accommodations to reality - or it will lead the Palestinian state to destruction.

Are we taking bets yet on which of the two will happen?

Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization

This jacka*s never ceases to amaze amuse me.

Hamas is on the blacklist of terrorist organizations everywhere, there's no plausible deniability anymore for the aid donors.

I think what will happen is that they'll follow the Fatah model, they'll have the terrorist arm of Hamas which will continue the attacks on Israel, and the political arm which will be governing and which will continue to receive money from EU and US because it will be dissasociating itself and supposedly condemning terror and simultaneously claiming helplessness. They had a good role model in Arafat all these years, they won't let all that talent go to waste.

Although the Palestinian National Council (PNC) has twice taken formal decisions to revise the Palestinian National Covenant (1996 and 1998) calling for Israel's destruction, the PNC Chairman, Salim Za'anoun, stated on February 3, 2001, in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper, that the Palestinian Covenant remained unchanged and was still in force [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 3 February 2001, as translated by MEMRI].

Not that changing it would matter though.

Palestinian leaders, stunned by the militant group's sweeping victory

Leaders around the world were shocked by Hamas' victory

I don't understand how anyone can be "stunned" or "shocked", especially people who are involved in politics. Where have they been living, ffs?!

The US State Department, the EU, and of course Israel, have all pledged that they will not deal with Hamas, which all view as a terrorist organization dedicated to Israel’s obliteration. However, there have been reports for months that the Europeans and elements in the State Department have been putting out feelers to the non-military wings of Hamas, despite all of the formers' recent tough talk in the wake of these elections.

But what we are seeing now will be nothing but a repeat of what we saw with the PLO back in the late 80’s (or was it early ‘90’s, I don’t recall exactly and don’t feel like looking it up). The point is this: The PLO was on the books as officially dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Although the State Department and Europeans drooled at the idea of Israel and the PLO recognizing each other and negotiating, it took some time before Arafat finally uttered the words that the PLO rejected terror and recognized Israel’s right to exist. Once that happened, Israel agreed to enter into negotiations with the representatives of the PLO, and eventually recognized the PLO. Finally this all led up to the Oslo Accords in the early ‘90’s.

But what we are seeing now will be nothing but a repeat of what we saw with the PLO

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The insistence Thursday by the Bush administration and key European leaders that they will not talk to the clear victors in the Palestinian elections until Hamas renounces terrorism and accepts Israel's right to exist is likely to define the prospects for Middle Eastern diplomacy - for as long as the ban lasts.

There are, however, three powerful reasons why this ban may not last, or at least may not mean quite what it says. The first is that a similar ban on dealings with the Palestinian Liberation Organization did not prevent discreet talks through third parties, usually the Algerians.

The second is West is financial. The spending of the PA government, including the salaries of its officials, health service and construction industry, is very largely dependent on funding from the European Union. The economic collapse and social despair that are likely to follow a complete breakdown of the Palestinian state could swiftly become a humanitarian crisis.

The third and probably crucial reason why Hamas may yet end up talking to the West is that there is a profound contradiction between a ban on talks with Hamas and the Bush administration's commitment to promote democracy in the Middle East.

"The United States can't promote democracy but then reject the results of this democracy," commented Amr Moussa, head of the Arab League.

Walker's World: Will Hamas listen?

"The United States can't promote democracy but then reject the results of this democracy," commented Amr Moussa, head of the Arab League

This is the crux of the problem. The Administration talks about democracy as if it were some new-time religion.

Democracy will only work in a peace-loving society. It will not bring peace if the voters don't want peace. I fear the US Admin. hasn't internalised that little fact yet.

Adolf Hilter got to power by an overwhelming "democratic" majority. This is prove and outstanding expample of the tragical misleading of "democratic" voting, if basic rules of mutual collaboration and acceptance are not observed. So, like the German people in 1933 was not mature to vote democratic - are likewise people today, who question the right of existence of their neighbours and advocate the application of rude force.

Former President Carter urged the international community to fund a Hamas-led Palestinian government.

“The Palestinian government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming,�? Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference Thursday. He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a government led by Hamas — which the United States and others consider a terrorist organization — money could be given to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels.

Carter, who led an international observer team that pronounced the vote free and fair, said Hamas might act “responsibly�? once it took power.

It just makes me sick.

I'll see you in a little bit bloggie, be good.

Which President fearfully retreated in the face of a killer bunny rabbit?

One of my all time favorite moments in history.

THe first time I saw photos and heard the story I blew snot out my nose laughing.

Don't forget: lusted after Dolly Parton's boobies in his heart and saw a UFO.

lusted after Dolly Parton's boobies in his heart

"But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
-- Matthew 5:28.

If KJV is to be believed, Jesus invented thoughtcrime.

"Then -- and possibly only then, alas -- will real peace become possible... at least for ten or twelve years. Until the madness once again strikes the Palestinians, and we must go through the whole belly-dance of a "peace process," followed by a war process, followed by another temporary peace.

Wilhelm Reich famously dissected the Mass Psychology of Fascism; I wonder if he ever considered the Mass Bipolar Disorder of the Moslems?"

Wilhelm Reich is not needed -- it's all right there in their book: hudna, the treaty of Hudaybiya, etc.

Hamas has to go to Iran, Saudi Arabia, al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, to stay afloat.

Well these guys have not supported the Pals for 57 years. They've only given money in support of terror but none openly admits it. If they start funding a Hamas that's nuts-on-gaga then the jig's up.

Methinks it's going to get interesting and ..... may not be all that bad. (Yes I read the Winds Of Change piece and respectfully disagree with Colt.)

WHY HAMAS'S VICTORY ISN'T SUCH A BAD THING.
Silver Lining
by Efraim Karsh

Hamas's apparent victory in the elections for Palestinian parliament creates a thorny dilemma for Israel, the United States, and the European Union: how to deal with a Palestinian government dominated by what all three have branded a terrorist organization. Yet there is a potential silver lining in this development. Not because it may transform Hamas into an ordinary political party that eschews violence and terrorism in favor of "more moderate policies," as suggested by Jimmy Carter among others, but because Hamas's win might trigger a widespread disillusionment with the mirage--created by the Oslo process--of a democratic and peace-loving Palestinian government.

A good place to start is to acknowledge that the Palestinian elections were a contest not between a democratic party and a terror organization but rather between two unreconstructed terrorist groups, which were supposed to be disarmed and dismantled in accordance with the agreements signed by Israel and the PLO and the roadmap to peace announced in 2003 by the Quartet (the United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia). While Hamas's terrorist credentials need no elaboration, Fatah boasts a far longer terrorist record, dating back to January 1965 and including bombings, airplane hijacking, and countless massacres of innocent civilians throughout the world--Arab, Israeli, and Western--most notably at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Marwan Barghouti, who headed the Fatah electoral list, is serving five consecutive life sentences in an Israeli prison for murder and attempted murder.

Nor does the PLO-dominated P.A., established in May 1994 as part of the Oslo process, come anywhere near to being a liberal democracy. Rather it is an oppressive and corrupt regime, where the rule of the gun prevails and large sums of money donated by the international community for the benefit of the civilian Palestinian population are diverted to funding racist incitement, buying weaponry, and filling secret bank accounts. Extensive protection and racketeering networks run by P.A. officials proliferate, while the national budget is plundered at will by PLO veterans and Arafat cronies. It is, in fact, this oppressive and corrupt governance that has allowed Hamas to win widespread popular support by creating an extensive system of social-welfare handouts that substitutes for the services the P.A. has failed to provide.

Equally misconceived is the perception of Palestinian society as locked in an ideological struggle between secular modernizers and religious radicals. Since its rise in the early seventh century, Islam has constituted the linchpin of Middle Eastern politics, and its hold on Palestinian society is far stronger than is commonly recognized. Arafat was a devout Muslim, associated in his early days with the militant Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas's parent organization, as were other founding fathers of Fatah. And while the new generation of Fatah leaders in the territories may be less religious, they nevertheless have a draft constitution for a prospective Palestinian state that stipulates "Islam shall be the official religion of Palestine" and Sharia--which relegates non-Muslims to a legally inferior position--"shall be a major source of legislation."

Finally, and contrary to another widely accepted myth, there is no fundamental difference between the ultimate goals of Hamas and Fatah vis-a-vis Israel: Neither accepts the Jewish state's right to exist and both are committed to its eventual destruction. The only difference between the two groups lies in their preferred strategies for the attainment of this goal. Whereas Hamas concentrates exclusively on "armed struggle," as its murderous terror campaign is conveniently euphemized, the PLO has adopted since the early 1990s a more subtle strategy, combining intricate political and diplomatic maneuvering with sustained terror attacks (mainly under the auspices of Tanzim, Fatah's military arm). Hence the refusal of Arafat and more recently Abbas to disarm Hamas (and Islamic Jihad), as required by the Oslo accords and the roadmap; and hence their tacit approval of the murder of hundreds of Israelis by these groups. In the candid words of Farouq Qaddoumi, the PLO's perpetual foreign minister: "We were never different from Hamas. Hamas is a national movement. Strategically, there is no difference between us."

The PLO's duplicity of speaking the language of peace while backing terrorism worked impeccably. Fatigued by decades of fighting, and yearning for a normalcy that would allow them at last to enjoy their recently won affluence, many Israelis, followed by the international community at large, naively clung to the Oslo process, turning a blind eye to the growing terrorist infrastructure in the Palestinian territories. And while Arafat overplayed his hand by launching his war of terror in September 2000, his death rekindled the widespread illusion that Palestinian politics have entered a new and far more promising era.

The international community thus ignored the fact that for all their drastically different personalities and political style, Arafat and Abbas were both dogmatic PLO veterans who never eschewed their commitment to Israel's destruction and who viewed the "peace process" as the continuation of their lifetime war by other means. It whitewashed Abbas's adamant refusal to fight terrorism as a reflection of political weakness (as it had done with Arafat in the early Oslo years) and turned a blind eye to his repeated calls for the destruction of Israel through demographic subversion (via the so-called "right of return").

In these circumstances, where the real choice is between a plain-speaking extremist organization advocating the destruction of a neighboring state and a corrupt and repressive regime couching its intentions in hollow peace rhetoric whenever addressing non-Arab audiences, Hamas may prove the lesser of two evils. By leaving no doubt about its true nature and raising no false expectations of imminent peace and democracy, it helps expose the deep malaise of the Palestinian political system and the attendant need for its fundamental overhaul.

There is, of course, the risk that, in its dealings with the world community, Hamas will adopt its predecessor's duplicitous conduct so as to maintain the extraordinary level of international aid enjoyed by the Palestinians since the mid-1990s. This might well dupe naive do-gooders. Yet one hopes that Hamas's victory will cause the international community to pay closer attention to what the Palestinian authorities tell their own people and wider Arab constituencies. As for Israelis, yesterday's election results will have the virtue of creating clarity in their political debate. Now, as it weighs unilateral withdrawal and other policy options, Israel can at least do so without illusions.

So you think 3,000 more of us should die, that would make us even better?

Using your logic, if we are nuked and 300,000 of us die, the rest of New York will be populated by saints.

LOL! Glad you're here to lighten the gloomy mood of this thread, Max.



Plus you're teh hotness.

Logic has nothing to do with it. When "things inevitably go wrong" it will always be the fault of the perfidious Jews.

What was Aisha thinking? Of course! There are the Jews, there are the djinns, and there is the shaitaan, and between the three of them, everything can be explained away, praise Allah!

A Hamas victory takes us one step closer to a second Shoah and a civilization-ending nuclear war. How the f*ck can you joke about shit like this?

As if no one in the entire history of the world has ever laughed in the face of impending armageddon ...

Kinky Sex Makes the World Go 'Round
by The Dead Kennedys

Greetings... This is the Secretary at the State Department of the United States... We have a problem. The companies want something done about this sluggish world economic situation... Profits have been running a little thin lately and we need to stimulate some growth... Now we know there's an alarming high number of young people roaming around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble for the police and damage private property. It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job... It's about time we did something constructive with these people... We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over... The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together - and start another war... The president? He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro... Napalm... People running down the road, skin on fire... The Soviets seem up for it... The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years. Hell, Afghanistan's no fun... So whadya say?... We don't even have to win this war. We just want to cut down on some of this excess population... Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can. We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on, hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use an automatic riffle and send 'em on their way... Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland? Or a 'moderately repressive regime' in South America? We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story in the Middle East - we need that oil... We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad didn't even show up. I tell ya... that man is unreliable. The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one... Now just think for a minute - we can make this war so big - so BIG... The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper... We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queues if we plan this right. Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls... Now don't worry about those demonstrators - just pump up your drug supply. So many people have hooked themselves on heroin and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam. We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong. Kept the war functioning just fine... It's easy. We've got our college kids so interested in beer they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again. Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard, they wouldn't even know what it looked like... So how 'bout it? Look - war is money. The arms manufacturers tell me unless we get our bomb factories up to full production the whole economy is going to collapse... The Soviets are in the same boat. We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?... That's excellent. We knew you'd agree... the companies will be very pleased.

15 days until the wedding!

That's wonderful, Fay! I'm so happy for you and Matt. :-D

It is especially exciting to see pictures from the National Garden as there are NONE yet released. I had to use pics from the Botanic Conservatory instead. What a thrill that you could go there.

florrie, I was thinking of you when I was there. I only wish I had more time to explore (and take more pictures). We only had about 15-20 minutes there.

Now how about a picture of Sweet Baby James from Fay, hmmm?

Your wish is my command Miss florrie.

What victory does to Hamas is to put the movement into an impossible position....They will have to show their true face now......There will be no excuses or ambiguities when Hamas fires rockets on Israel and launches suicide attacks against civilian targets....

The most interesting comment he makes is:

Hamas’s favored outcome was not victory, but a strong showing that would leave Hamas with the best of both worlds: It would remain in opposition ... but would impose severe limitations on the Fatah-led government on how to manage its relations with Israel.

This is supported by:

Hamas has already asked Fatah to form a coalition and got a negative response.